More Google Review Issues
Following the tracks
This will serve as a running log (New entries at the bottom), since apparently there’s some strange things going on with these reviews.
So far we have:
Saturday, Feb 5th: Paula and I post 1-star reviews of Vista Church
Sunday, Feb 6th: “John Piper” posts a 5-star review attacking Paula’s review and my own. S/he also posts a 5-star review of Stoneway church.
Monday, Feb 7th:
Paula’s review and my own disappear.
“John Piper” changes the review to 1-star with a comment about how Google/Vista made JP’s review look silly.
Paula reposts a new 1-star review.
Tuesday, Feb 8th:
“John Piper”’s review disappears (the Stoneway one is not removed)
I post a new 1-star review in the afternoon.
Wednesday, February 9th:
By 8:30AM, my review is taken down again. Paula’s still stands.
Saturday, February 5th, 2022
My wife (Paula) and I each post a 1-star review of Vista Church. The full text is included below:
Jeff:
I was a member of the team that helped plant this church in 2016. I moved to SLO from Seattle to do so, with my wife and two kids. I led a small group in it for over two years. I gave it my heart and my soul, thinking I was "following Jesus." I deeply regret all of that.
If you are going to check out this church, you should at least find “leavingthenetwork.org” and my own site “notovercome.org” (which has my public letter to them with far more detail than this review). There you will find lots of information from people who have been in this church and/or its Network.
I still love Jesus. I wish the church would repent of its sins.
----- very brief summary -----
And after all of the above information has come out, they have not apologized to those they harmed. I wrote my public letter on December 10th, and intentionally gave them well over a month to reach out before posting this review. They have not. "Leaving the Network" has been up almost six months now, as well. No response except we hear the leaders are lying about those websites and slandering those behind them.
A summary of what you’ll find when you read more: The leaders of this church are comfortable with domineering, pressuring people to do things their way. They are ok with twisting scripture or ignoring it to suit their needs. Criticism is not tolerated, even if it’s meant to be constructive. They do not invest sufficiently in women, they ignore racism, and mostly ignore the poor. They commit what’s known as “spiritual abuse” – they invoke the name of God or the Bible in order to coerce people into certain behaviors, thoughts, or emotions. They particularly target young men who they have said are more “moldable” into what the church wants them to be. I participated in these abuses during my time there, and I continue to repent of my actions.
When you first arrive, they will be incredibly welcoming. People will want to get to know you, they might want to invite you to some event or small group. They might remember your name when you go back (this is a big focus for them). But once you are “plugged in”, they will start expecting more of you – talking about “what’s next.” They’ll do everything with a smile. But over time you will give up more and more of your ability to be yourself instead of what they want to make you. And if you don’t give them that control, and you express opinions they don’t like, you might find them telling you “this might not be the church for you” but it will feel more like they're telling you to leave. And after leaving you’ll notice that all those people who were so welcoming never talk to you anymore. And this will confuse you, because it’s all done with a smile. Please – go read the stories on the sites I mentioned. Be educated on Spiritual Abuse and the tactics of High Control Groups before you attend Vista Church.
I lost a decade of my life to this Network of churches – I hope sharing my experience helps you make an informed decision.
You should know: Five of the 5-star reviews written here are by the plant team. Sundar Ram is an overseer in the church. Stephen Chung is a small group leader. Kyler Cox was a small group leader. And Shelby Nuccitelli is married to the worship leader. And a fifth is no longer in the Network.
Paula:
Contrary to what their website tells you, Vista is NOT a healthy, local church. I would not recommend attending it. The leadership at this church is domineering, manipulative, and controlling. Many, many people have been hurt by this church. They prey on college students because they are young and impressionable.
The people will seem very nice and friendly, they will love-bomb newcomers. But once you are “in” you will be expected to conform to what the church wants you to be. Questions and suggestions are not welcome. If you have too many or the wrong ones, the leadership will tell you that you would be happier at another church or just kick you out full-stop. And the people who were so nice and friendly will drop you.
In total transparency, I was a plant team member who moved to San Luis Obispo from Seattle to help start this church in 2016 and was a faithful member here for almost 5 years. I absolutely regret having any part of building this thing that has hurt so many! My husband was a small group leader in the church. He details his story of being domineered and controlled by the leadership on his blog: "notovercome.org"
This church is part of a stealthy, no-name network of churches across the country (with 2 international locations). The whole network is unhealthy and toxic. There are many stories of domineering in the other churches as well, including by the top network leader and the network leadership team. They can be found at: "leavingthenetwork.org"
Please save yourself the heartache of going to this church.
For the record, five of the written 5 star reviews were written by people who moved to SLO with me to plant the church, including one elder.
Saturday night, February 5, 2022
“John Piper” posts the following as a 5-star review - he also posted a 5-star review on Stoneway Church
Like any reviews, not sure how Jeff and Paula can give so much power to Google where anyone can impersonate anyone. Who is holding Google accountable? Why are they using a platform that has this kind of power to dictate just like Steve Morgan? I guess people just call it abuse when things don't work out.
This is bullying. It calls out my wife and myself by name. It also includes the gaslighting statement “I guess people just call it abuse when things don’t work out.” This statement denies the abuse and accuses Paula and myself of just calling it “abuse” when “things don’t work out.”
I quickly post this post on reddit, and report the above review as “bullying or harassment” via Google’s report tool. By Sunday, I was aware of several others who also reported it as bullying or harassment.
Sunday, February 6, 2022
Two more 1-star reviews go up, by Pat K. and Aaron Munoz.
Monday, February 7, 2022
Paula’s review and my own no longer appear on Googe reviews, implying they have been removed. Neither of us received any feedback, and both had more than 20+ “likes” marking the review helpful by the time they were removed.
Later that morning, after I make known that our reviews have been removed, “John Piper” updates his review to 1-star and changes the text to the following:
Review on 2/7/2022:
Updating my review to 1-star because Google/Vista are making me look silly when I referred to reviews which they deleted. I think those reviews have 20+ likes too so who at the top has this much power? Guess mine will be removed soon but I hope everyone sees this beforehand. Stop the abuse, accountability at the top please! Review on2/5/2022:
Like any reviews, not sure how Jeff and Paula can give so much power to Google where anyone can impersonate anyone. Who is holding Google accountable? Why are they using a platform that has this kind of power to dictate just like Steve Morgan? I guess people just call it abuse when things don't work out.
Paula reposted a new review Monday night:
Vista is NOT a healthy church. I would not recommend attending it.
I was a part of the team that moved to SLO from Seattle to start Vista in 2016. I left in April 2021 after having served in and loved this church and its people for nearly 5 years. My husband was a small group leader in the church. In his time as a small group leader it became apparent that the pastor was domineering, manipulative, and gossiped about people in the church. It was incredibly hard to leave because all our friends were there. A number of these friends no longer speak to us because we left. But we had come to realize that what we were building was by no means a healthy church. Rather it was an extremely unhealthy one where conformity to the system and loyalty to the leadership was valued above loyalty to Jesus. We got to a point where we could no longer, in good conscience, allow our presence to imply approval of something so toxic.
The leadership at Vista is domineering, manipulative, and controlling. There are many people who have been harmed by Vista and the no-name network it is a part of. Google “Leaving the Network” and you will find many stories of deep spiritual harm done, including two stories specifically about Vista (one of them is my husband’s story). After my husband went public with his story, many people reached out to us with stories of the spiritual and emotional harm done to them at Vista. It was (and still is) absolutely heartbreaking.
Please save yourself the heartache of going to this church.
For the record, five of the written 5 star reviews were written by people who moved to SLO with me to plant the church, including one elder.
Tuesday, February 8, 2022
“John Piper’s” review was gone by Tuesday morning. Farewell, John.
I posted my new review Tuesday afternoon:
Imagine moving almost 1,000 miles and spending almost five years trying to help plant a healthy church. Now imagine feeling that you need to leave a 1-star review for that church. What happened? What went wrong? This is where I find myself.
My wife, two kids, and myself were part of the team of 47 that planted this church in 2016. I volunteered more hours and gave more money than I care to count, trying to build it up. I led a small group for over two years. I deeply regret all of that.
Vista Church is part of “The Network” of churches started by Steve Morgan. You can learn more about it by Googling “Leaving the Network”. I also write about it on my own blog, which you can find by Googling “not overcome”.
I was a part of the network for 9 years. I loved this church, its leaders, and its people so much. They will be incredibly welcoming when you first arrive. But that’s not the whole story. Some facts:
* I was harshly rebuked for asking certain questions.
* I was aggressively pushed to gossip about people who had concerns.
* I heard gossip (and sometimes borderline slander) from my leaders about others in the church.
* I heard a leader compare reading about incidents of racial injustice to “reading about the Kardashians”.
* There was no formal structure for the discipleship of women, who also cannot be leaders/teachers of men in any way.
* The “for the community” program was small, and they were not interested in doing more.
* They focus particularly on young, moldable college students (men, specifically), and may try to convince you that following Jesus means staying in SLO after graduation.
* The pastor is comfortable claiming he has prophetic “visions” for the church.
* The leaders are not seminary trained, but instead are trained by their leader (also not seminary trained).
* Members are required to give 10% of their gross income to the church, and to not do yoga or get tattoos.
* People on the overseer board or on the plant team leave 5-star reviews that don’t disclose their role in the church.
* I never witnessed an apology for any of the above or any other significant issue.
* I lost some of my closest friends when we left, some of whom didn't even ask why.
In the end, I could no longer tolerate the spiritual abuse occurring. The cognitive dissonance between the ways of Jesus and the ways of this church became too great to ignore. Over two dozen people have told me their stories of being harmed by Vista Church. I wrote a public letter to the church almost two months ago and have heard nothing in return from the leaders.
There is too much else to say – I strongly recommend visiting the sites listed above to understand more about Vista Church and its Network.
Wednesday, February 9th, 2022
By 8:30AM, my review has been taken down again. All others still stand.
A new review, with no comment, is left by Frank Liu - 1-star.
I posted the following review around 11AM, with a few additions and edits from the above to try to avoid anything they could even claim was inaccurate (I stand by every word of the previous version).
Imagine moving almost 1,000 miles and spending almost five years trying to help plant a healthy church. Now imagine feeling that you need to leave a 1-star review for that church. What happened? What went wrong? This is where I find myself.
My wife, two kids, and myself were part of the team of 47 that planted this church in 2016. I volunteered more hours and gave more money than I care to count, trying to build it up. I led a small group for over two years. I deeply regret all of that.
Vista Church is part of “The Network” of churches started by Steve Morgan. You can learn more about it by Googling “Leaving the Network”. I also write about it on my own blog, which you can find by Googling “not overcome”.
I was a part of the network for 9 years. I loved this church, its leaders, and its people so much. They will likely be incredibly welcoming when you first arrive. But that’s not the whole story. Some facts:
* I was harshly rebuked for asking certain questions.
* I heard gossip (and sometimes borderline slander) from my leaders about others in the church.
* I was aggressively pushed to gossip about people who had concerns about the church.
* I heard a leader compare reading about incidents of racial injustice to “reading about the Kardashians”.
* The leaders appoint any new leaders, with no formal input process from the members of the church.
* There was insufficient structure for the discipleship of women, who also cannot be leaders/teachers of men in any way.
* The “for the community” program was small, and they stated no interest in doing more.
* They focus particularly on young, moldable college students (men, specifically), and may try to convince you that following Jesus means staying in SLO after graduation.
* The pastor is comfortable claiming he has prophetic “visions” for the church.
* The leaders are not seminary trained, but instead are trained by their leader (also not seminary trained).
* The teaching sometimes includes statements like "The Bible is clear" about things that have been debated by Christians for centuries.
* The teaching sometimes involves the pastor reading his own meaning into the text, rather than sticking to the words of the Bible.
* They emphasize passages they can use to demand loyalty and trust toward leaders (Hebrews 13:17), but fail to emphasize passages on how leaders should not domineer, but instead be examples (1 Peter 5:3).
* Members are required to give 10% of their gross income to the church, and to not do yoga or get tattoos.
* People on the overseer board or on the plant team leave 5-star reviews that don’t disclose their role in the church.
* I never witnessed an apology for any of the above or any other significant issue. (See 1 John 1:6-10)
* I lost some of my closest friends when we left, some of whom didn't even ask why.
In the end, I could no longer tolerate the spiritual abuse occurring. The cognitive dissonance between the ways of Jesus and the ways of this church became too great to ignore. Over two dozen people have told me their stories of being harmed by Vista Church. I wrote a public letter to the church almost two months ago and have heard nothing in return from the leaders.
There is too much else to say – I strongly recommend visiting the sites listed above to understand more about Vista Church and its Network.