“Ask us Anything” - July 12, 2022
The contributors to the upcoming “Unnamed and Unbroken” podcast about the network hosted an “ask us anything” zoom call last week, on Tuesday, July 12th, 2020. I apologize for it taking a bit to get the audio out - there was a flurry of activity over the last week and am just getting to it. Over 30 people joined the Zoom call, and great questions were asked. Sorry, due to a technical issue, Lisa Clanton is only in the audio, and doesn’t appear on screen.
References
We reference a number of items from:
This site (which you can blame Jeff for, but not Geneva, Morgan, or Lisa. Jeff is just hosting this video).
Hosts
Your Hosts (positions reference where they are once someone Jeff remembered to click the button that makes us all visible)
Morgan Miller (top left)
Geneva Moore (top right)
Lisa Clanton (not pictured)
Jeff Irwin (bottom, creator of this site)
Blooper!
There’s an amazing moment where, right after Morgan correctly says “501c3”, I manage to say it, very clearly, as “F01c3”. I’ve faithfully transcribed it below for posterity. Fun fact, even when I was a kid, entering codes in video games, sometimes I would enter “F” instead of “5” or “5” instead of “F”. Apparently I’m not over it - I didn’t even realize I’d done it. Fear not — a minute or two later in this video I recover and accurately name it 501c3.
Transcript
Please note - transcription is, as always, best efforts. The video is the authoritative record, the transcript is just meant as an aid for people who prefer consuming it that way. I use a transcription service (otter.ai) to get a base transcription and then I hand-review it to try to fix up most issues, but it’s never perfect. Speech is speech, and can’t always be well-represented by text.
Jeff Irwin 00:00
Welcome to our little zoom ask us anything. Like I said, if you want to ask questions about the weather in Southern California, that's fair game. If you want to ask about the weather somewhere else, that's fair game to but we might not know. Well, Geneva and Morgan might. But so we'll start with quick introductions, feel free to throw any questions you have in the in the chat. Everybody will be able to see them. Or if you really want to keep your, I don't know why you would want to do this, but you could just IM it straight to one of the hosts in the chat. But then they'll read it so everbody will know, but if you don't want it to know that it's from you or something, feel free to do that. And we'll do our best with this. Like we said in the in the Reddit. Like, we are three people. None of us is, like, the master of anything here. We have no power, no authority. None of us is affiliated with LTN, the Leaving the Network site. I have the Not Overcome site. Geneva and Morgan have been active on the Reddit. But yeah, like there's there's no authority or anything like that here. But we are three people who have been pretty active in all of this. So we're happy to help for those of you who have questions or might just be interested because people might just be showing up now and like, "What in the world is going on?" Which is I totally get it. It's a lot to take in. But we want to welcome people from joining, thank people from for joining. And hopefully this ends up being useful. We'll go for about an hour just to try it out. If there's one last straggler question, we'll try and squeeze it in. But if there's a whole bunch of extra questions after that, we'll just schedule more time. So with that, Geneva, you want to go ahead and introduce yourself.
Geneva Moore 02:07
Sure. Um, my name is Geneva. I left Joshua church this year in February. I moved here from Indiana, where I was previously at High Rock Church. And yeah, I guess that's about it. I started getting into the topic of church hurt and spiritual abuse, maybe like a year and a half ago. I think around the time when it was becoming a little more mainstream, like when the podcasts The Rise and Fall of Mars Hill came out a little bit before that. I was just trying to understand what I was experiencing. I knew that there was a lot of pain and concerns there. But I didn't quite have a name or terminology to that. So yeah, that's kind of a brief history. I'm still in Austin. Yeah, that's about it.
Jeff Irwin 03:10
Morgan?
Morgan Miller 03:13
Hello, I'm Morgan, also known as mille23m on Reddit. I was at Joshua Church for three years, but I left last March. Praise be to God. And you know, actually just moved back to Austin. I was gone. I had to move in with my mom for a couple months because she was diagnosed with cancer. But now I'm back in Austin excited to live out the life I've always really wanted to live out here. Take it away, Jeff.
Jeff Irwin 03:43
Awesome. So cool. This is great. I just saw Lisa
Geneva Moore 03:48
Aww
Jeff Irwin 03:51
join. So I'm going to - let's see, I don't think I can let her share video but I'm going to maybe ask to unmute to see if she wants to jump in. No?
Lisa Clanton 04:15
Hey, guys, yeah, I'm unmuted.
Jeff Irwin 04:17
Oh there we go.
Lisa Clanton 04:18
Yeah yeah yeah.
Jeff Irwin 04:19
Hey, wanna go ahead and introduce yourself, Lisa?
Lisa Clanton 04:24
Sure. Greetings from Southern Illinois. My name is Lisa. Did you guys give me like your background about your connection to the network or
Jeff Irwin 04:35
Yeah, like what church you went, how long you've been out?
Lisa Clanton 04:38
Sure. Okay.
Lisa Clanton 04:39
Um, so I initially attended Vine Church, when I worked at SIU Carbondale. I attended there for about three years and then I moved to Bowling Green, Kentucky, and worked at Western Kentucky University pre-church plant. That's also very interesting. And then I took a job in St. Louis, Missouri, where I attended City Lights Church, oh, from 2009 to 2015. And many of you know the story with City Lights. And I also highlight that I was there during the Ferguson uprising that has really just been etched on my heart. And I'd also like to add, I'm just an unapologetic daughter of the Black church. And so that's a part of my lens, and has always been part of my lens as I attended the network churches. So that's me.
Jeff Irwin 05:36
All right. With that, I think Morgan is going to be our emcee of sorts, and kind of grab questions off the chat and then throw them over to myself or Geneva or Lisa. So with that, go ahead, Morgan.
Morgan Miller 05:58
Yeah, so I -
Jeff Irwin 05:59
Oh I didn't introduce introduce myself, I guess.
Jeff Irwin 06:02
[everyone laughs] Yeah, so I'm Jeff Irwin, I run, create the blog, NotOvercome.org. I've been writing there since about December, I was in Blue Sky Church in Bellevue, Washington starting in 2012, after I left Mars Hill Church, for any of you who have heard that, heard of that. So I started there in 2012. Moved down on the Vista Church plant in summer 2016. I have a wife, two kids, and now a dog. He's like a 20 month old yellow lab, and then uh - yeah, he's super cute, named banjo. So all kinds of energy. So anyway, yeah, so we were at Vista 2016. And then early 2019, I started leading a small group, and did that until early 2021. When we left, left Vista in April '21. So just a little over a year ago now. I started writing publicly by name in December '21, and then have been doing that and been active on the Reddit since. So.
Geneva Moore 06:02
No.
Geneva Moore 07:21
Alrighty.
Jeff Irwin 07:22
All right, Morgan, take it away.
Morgan Miller 07:24
Yeah, well, I think a great place to start is when somebody asked about, you know, the reveal about Steve Morgan's criminal history is obviously a huge deal. And they loved seeing the call to action after but, Jeff, I feel like you have a pretty good, stable idea of what could possibly be the next step or next phase with the Leaving the Network movement of sorts?
Jeff Irwin 07:52
Yeah, sure. So one, one thing for those of you who are joining right now is I want to make it clear that the leaving the network, quote, unquote, "movement" is just a bunch of people. There is a LeavingTheNetwork.org site that has some unknown number of contributors behind it, and you can read about that on their "about" page. They have not chosen to make their names known for a variety of reasons. And you'd have to talk to them about that. And I think it talks about that on their "about" page, is why they did that. Then there is the Reddit which was not created by the LeavingTheNetwork.org site that was created by somebody else. And it has over 500, almost 600 People who have joined it and a whole lot more who probably read it, but don't click the Join button or don't create a Reddit account. But, you know, it's had, you know, threads, you know, probably most days going back almost almost a year now. But that has a few mods on it, but they're very light touch, very light touch mods. People have repeatedly called the Reddit, "The Wild West." Kind of anybody can say anything. most or many people there are anonymous. They write under a pseudonym or some name that doesn't reveal their, their names. So I see for example, we've got "bright squirrel" on the on the call here. So lots of lots of fun names like that. And then we've got my site, which has a name, and then there's one more [misspeaks] unorthoprax.net, I think is the name of it. That is also an anonymous blog that's posted a few things. So, there's no centralized, there's no governance here for the "LTN movement." So if you ask, and some people have, you know, Morgan actually asked the other day on the Reddit like what do you all want. And I think a number of people answered and a number of people wanted different things. And hoped to see different things. And some people said, don't hope for anything like just tell your story and then let people do what they want. And other people were like, well, this is what I'd hoped for.
Jeff Irwin 10:15
In terms of next step. Speaking for me, I've always viewed it as my role is a truth-teller. And my goal is to get as much truth out there as I can. And I've talked about various specific things that I've seen my story, things that I've had, but then I've also started doing a series of kind of analysis on Membership Bible Training, and going through those teachings and making those public and things like that. So my goal is transparency and truth. I believe, Jesus when he talks about the importance of living in the light, and not living in the darkness. And so I think many of these things should have been public for a long time. And, you know, so I'm helping to do that. My goal is not to make anybody do anything. I have a strong aversion to any kind of control or anything. So my my view is: telling truth is good. To the extent that people feel comfortable and safe doing so, and have a passion to do so. So, and then listening to truth is also good. And so my hope is that lots of people are listening, and lots of people are learning, and hearing the stories of those who say that they've been harmed, or who say that there are issues in this church network. And my hope is that those people are able to hear that able to hear that these are coming from people who loved these churches. At a time - I mean there was a time when I'm - I moved 1000 miles for Vista Church. Right? I was part of the church, but like I was in as anybody could be. And it was absolutely devastating. You know, to kind of see it, become - you know, see, my experience become something that I simply couldn't do anymore. So. So that's - that, to me is the next step is it's it's just keep telling the truth. On the network side, I think they should have some next steps, but I'm not part of them. So I can't say for them what they will do, what they will do next. So I do think an investigation would be fully appropriate. So many other organ-. Many other churches that have found themselves in a similar spot partner with an organization like GRACE, and they do a full and open investigation. So I think that would be a wise thing to do. And would recommend it, and I've called for repeatedly.
Morgan Miller 12:51
And, Jeff, if you could unmute Geneva, possibly. And while you do that, I just want to remind everybody on this call to we did put it in the Reddit post, but we all have our own opinions. The four of us aren't, you know, like minded. We're not one brain. We all have our own experiences, our own thoughts to everything. So just want to remind everyone and make that clear. The next question that we have was kind of already touched on somebody was asking some of the history, you know, a lot of people have been starting to look at the Reddit and the website, just you know, within the past couple of days. So what has it kind of looked like in the past year, major revelations, current status of info. Geneva, what would you tell the new people that are here and experiencing this for the first time?
Geneva Moore 13:47
So from my understanding, I feel like there's a lot behind the scenes with how this all initiated that I'm still catching up on. But I believe that the website started initially as a way of essentially just tracking the abuse that has been happening in the network, getting a history of how the network even started, and what the framework actually is. I know for me, personally, I was not aware of how the network was actually ran until I moved to be part of the Joshua Church church plant. So when I moved, it was a very large surprise to see how interconnected everything was, and that there really was no independence. Everything was essentially a web that was ran up all the way towards Steve. I didn't even find out about like, the Network Leadership Team or anything about that until the website came out as well. And so the ability just to have that transparency and information even just to give some really like clear and unbiased insight on the structures that we have, I think was just a really invaluable tool to be able to understand what I actually am a part of, and how everything works. And so having that information really answered a lot of questions and confusion I had. And I think gives a lot more depth to I guess, in some ways, how insidious the nature of the damage has been, since the network first started. These are all things that essentially one would hope they would know about the church they're really committing their lives to and none of that information has been available until now. The Reddit I believe, formed not long after that, just as a community, to talk about our experiences, to have a voice. And that opened to share what we know or what we have experienced in a way that was not threatening. We didn't have to worry about anyone knowing who we were or what church we were at, or anything like that. And I think that really was invaluable just to be able to have some breath and freedom to share experiences and find a language for that as well. And so, I know for me personally, I waited until I left, because I I knew to share specific details of my story that it wouldn't be - It couldn't be anonymous. Which will come out at a further later date. But I think that people that have had that opportunity to be anonymous, enjoying sooner while they're still in the network. I think that has been really helpful. Yeah, yeah.
Morgan Miller 16:57
Thanks for sharing. So the next question is, "Can you please describe how the churches are connected? We were told they were independent." Which I've actually been hearing that a lot lately this week. I didn't realize that. That was the case. But you know, Geneva and Jeff can jump in. But I know it started out fine. And there was a church plant to Blue Sky, and then it just kind of just spread from there. And all the churches started going on church plants. So, I did know the network leader Steve Morgan, I, I tell people that he's basically like the CEO, right? Like he's the president of this whole thing. And then he's got his group of overseers what's I don't know, everybody knows Sandor, James Chidester, who is the network therapist, the network praise and worship leader Chris Miller. I know that those are all the leaders and they just kind of oversee every church. So technically, every church isn't independent or not community. They're not as independent and in that specific community as they try to portray it. I don't know Geneva or Jeff, if you have any extra details to go in about that.
Jeff Irwin 18:13
I, I can I can give a real quick overview of the kind of governance structure of the of the network churches. So, briefly speaking, each network church has a Board of Overseers. That Board of Overseers is comprised of at least three people, one of whom is the lead pastor, typically. The lead pastor is typically the president of that board. If you read the bylaws, and I won't go through all of it right now and you can read - Leaving the Network has a pretty good page, titled "No Accountability", if you look through their little menu. But, but basically, that lead pastor has a little bit more power or more power than the other overseers on that board. Those other overseers may not be locals. For example, if you're at a newer church plant, typically the lead pastor in the planting church is a board member of the planted church for a certain amount of time. So for example, at Vista which was planted planted by Blue Sky, Steve Morgan was on the board for a certain amount of time until Vista added a - another overseer.
Jeff Irwin 19:30
Your local church also has a Network Area Coach, typically. So unless, unless your pastor is one of the Network Leadership Team, so for - So there are six members of the Network Leadership Team, Steve Morgan at Joshua Church, Sandor Paull at Christland, Luke Williams Vista Church. Aaron Kuhnert, at Brookfield in Athens, I think? And then Tony Ranvestel at Vida Springs in Gainesville, Florida. And who's the one I'm forgetting? I can never get through all six. Justin Major, Foundation Church. Sorry, I always get to five and then I can't come up with six. And it's never the right. Never the same one. But so anyway, those six are part of the Network Leadership Team. Steve, like the local boards. Steve has more of the, Steve has more of the authority at the Network Leadership Team level. So example, for example, new board, like new Network Leadership, Team members have to be nominated by Steve. So none of the other Network Leadership Team people can nominate somebody. So if Steve doesn't want you, you can't even get a vote. So Steve nominates and then the rest need to agree that the person should be added. But Steve has some extra authority there.
Jeff Irwin 21:05
Then yeah, and then so your Network Area Coach, if you read the local church bylaws, has a some authority in the local church. So for example, if the other overseer, so Vista Church, there's Mark Guiles and Sundar Ram are the other overseers other than Luke Williams. So if Sundar and Mark really wanted to get rid of Luke, they could not do that without approval of the Network Area Coach. So I think even though Luke Williams is part of the Network Leadership Team, I think that's Sandor is somehow connected, like Luke has referred to Sandor as his leader before. But I'm not sure, because it's not written down. Um, so some of this is really hard to figure out. But
Jeff Irwin 21:56
But yeah, I think basically, there's, yeah, so the Network Area Coach has additional authority. The Network Area Coach has to approve new area - new overseers. And then finally there is the - and then the Network Leadership Team can, even without local overseers, at least my read of the bylaws is that the network leadership team can even without the local overseers agreeing can remove a lead pastor. So if the whole network - so for example, if Luke Williams said, I, you know, want to do something that the Network Leadership Team doesn't like, the Network Leadership Team could remove Luke, even if Mark and Sundar agreed, the only way out of all of that is leaving the network, which a local church can do. But the overseer they, the board of the local church has to agree unanimously. And if you start to think through, briefly, like, how would they even find out that they agree unanimously, because any given overseer would have to go to another one and say, "Hey, I think we should leave the network." If the person they go to disagrees, that person can go to the lead pastor and the network area coach and say, "Hey, we got to get rid of that first overseer, because he wants to leave the network." Right. So it's, it's really, really, really hard after City Lights after they - They rewrote the bylaws after City Lights left the network in 2018, to make it much more difficult for a church to leave the network. And they were successful in doing that. It's actually really hard to imagine how that consensus would happen. The last connection is, every church in the network by their bylaws has to give 5% of their tithes at least. It's unclear on whether or not its offerings as well, but [misspeaks] 10% of the tithes go to - or 5% of the tithes go to the Network General Fund. That Network General Fund pays for Steve Morgan, Chris Miller and James Chidester, who are - Steve is president of the network. James Chester is on staff as a counselor for network pastors. And then Chris Miller runs worship for the whole network. It's unclear whether or not there are other expenses out of the Network General Fund. So. Did I miss anything?
Morgan Miller 24:24
That I mean I say that was a good start at the very least.
Jeff Irwin 24:27
It's highly connected. And you can see that the easiest way to see that is when you go through like the different websites and you see how many of them look that - look very similar. Some of them are using the same stock images for different things. You'll see the same language on all of them. There's a lot - there's been a lot of Reddit threads about like commonalities across the network churches and you know different games like you know, Spikeball or nine-square, or things like that. Or cornhole, Lunar New Year parties that just tend to be common across many of the churches. Typically not all, typically, each local church has has some variance. And if you go through the websites, there are some that do have variance. So it's it's not, you know, perfect every single - it's it's not like McDonald's, right? Like every single one of them is the same. But there's a lot of commonalities across it that you'll see.
Geneva Moore 25:20
I think something I want to add is that even if there weren't these specific bylaws listed in place that kind of connect everything, the culture of leadership and following leaders, the way that's talked about, automatically creates an inference where no one would go outside of the highest authority that's listed. And so ultimately, what happens is that how Steve visions God moving and then network gets the final say, in everything that happens. And leaders are taught and encouraged to follow their leaders in a way that is - lacks diversity and often is mimicking what they say and what they do. And so when you think about unity in the Bible, what you're not finding is actual unity, you're just finding copies of the same thing. You know, because there's no actual diversity of thought and opinion when one person has the final authority and almost all decisions.
Jeff Irwin 26:25
Right - there's uniform unity, uniformity and conformity, right?
Geneva Moore 26:29
Yes.
Jeff Irwin 26:30
Unity is hey, we all agree like we've - we are unified, we want to go in the same direction. But we've all agreed in doing this. Uniformity is we all even look the same in doing that. Conformity is when that is required. When when there is a pressure, a power being created to create that uniformity. I see a quick follow up question, "So Blue Sky even today answers to someone not at Blue Sky?" That's absolutely right. Luke Williams is the Network Area Coach for Blue Sky Church and the West and believed to be for the West Coast churches. I know I've heard him talk about that. I think that includes Summit Creek, Valley Springs and Hills churches in Eugene, Corvallis, and Pullman. But yeah, Luke Williams is the network overseer for - Network Area Coach for Blue Sky. I have heard him talk about him coaching Krsh and pushing Krsh to do this or that in private conversations that I've had with with Luke.
Morgan Miller 27:33
Awesome, great answers, y'all. Hopefully that was helpful for some of you who are just now learning. Because before the website, I had no idea how the network worked at all.
Jeff Irwin 27:44
Right. Same.
Morgan Miller 27:45
So these two -
Jeff Irwin 27:47
I didn't know it was that deep? I did not know it was that deep at all? Yeah.
Morgan Miller 27:52
Yeah. So these two are a little bit more personal, not necessarily asking about specifically network attributes and characteristics, but I think are still important to touch on. So this specific person has been going to a network church since literally elementary school, kids program, got baptized, serving, member classes. Still has family and friends there. And the biggest question is, if anybody else can relate with feeling absolutely firm in your decision to leave, but may have pressure from people you're still close with, you know, I definitely was blessed. I was only there for three years. Obviously, there's a certain kind of pressure from certain people who still live, eat, breathe, Steve Morgan. And it can be very difficult to leave. And I couldn't even imagine, especially family still being a part of it. And as much as I want to say, you know, it's so easy, just go it's not and the real estate side of things is that it's really not easy. Those are hard conversations to have. You may feel isolated but with possibly feeling isolated from the family and friends that you're so close with. The best thing that has been a part of this Reddit and which is kind of an answer to somebody else's question is you have a community of people who are behind you, you have a community of people, you know, if you want to message me on Reddit, or other people on Reddit and just get to know people and get to hear other people's stories or learn from them and you know, realize that you're really not alone, even though it can be very isolating, you know, you can lose a lot of friends, people you've always been close with, just because of this, but you know, I just encourage you to stay strong. Stay strong to yourself, stay true to yourself, continue to chase after the truth. And you know, the people who are meant to be there honestly will be there. And to follow that up with another question about what is some encouraging news. I know that the Reddit is definitely it's a place for people to heal and come and to have their voices heard. And sometimes it can be, you know, a lot of negativity at once. But I know personally, I've seen friends leave because of the website. I've seen friends sit there and realize, you know, how they have really been treated the past couple years and seeing people - freedom, and life and laughter and joy outside of it, and realizing that they can have that too. So I definitely feel like I don't know, maybe I might just be seeing it with rose colored glasses. But at least in my view, I've been seeing a lot more people leave, especially the last few months, just really opening their eyes and realizing that there's just something so much better and more fresh and less legalistic, you know.
Morgan Miller 30:54
Also, just to give you an update on time, we are at 7:35. So still send in some of your questions that you guys have.
Jeff Irwin 31:01
Yeah, sorry, the how is the network connected question I ate a fair amount of time. There's one [inaudible] somebody sent me privately a, "why does this matter if Steve Morgan isn't my pastor?"
Morgan Miller 31:14
That's a good one.
Jeff Irwin 31:15
And the answer is - And the answer is effectively, because Steve Morgan has come has some degree of control over all network churches. You know, that that degree of control varies. How many layers does it go through? Things like that. Does he have authority in day to day, you know, approving scripts of sermons? No, he does not, you know, or small group topics, or, you know, if a small group leader decides to use a different passage, like he, he, of course, does not have control at that level, but he has some degree of power over the entire network of churches. And then the other thing I would say would be, you know, many, many people would be probably just now hearing about LTN, and Leaving the Network and the Reddit, my site, etc. just now because of, you know, the the alleged crime of Steve Morgan and what happened after that, I would encourage people to spend time reading the stories page, on LeavingTheNetwork.org. Because, you know, the last year has not been about the crime of Steve Morgan. It's been about what's called Spiritual Abuse, or just generally, unhealthy systems in places in the church and, and seeing people be mistreated by pastors, people being domineered, as 1 Peter 5:3 would call it. You know, or seeing, you know, pastors, Lord, their - Lord, their power over people, as you see Jesus talk about, you know, when a couple of his disciples are saying, "Oh, who's gonna be the greatest?" And Jesus is like, "Wrong question." Right? "You're a servant. That's what you're for, you don't Lord Your power over people like the Gentiles do." And so, you know, that's, that's what much of the conversation has been about has been this, this kind of "our way, or the high way." That's the, if you listen to the Sandor 2018 "Unity in All Things" teaching. That's the core of it, is saying you you need to follow your leaders in everything. And some people have been, have been really, really hurt by that. I know. I'll just speak for myself in saying, that's for sure true for me. So. So anyway. But yeah, that's that's why it matters is because there's a lot of cultural things that have trickled through all the churches. And one by one, if you search for your church on the Reddit, you'll likely find stuff. That's not true about all of them yet, but one by one, it's so funny for me last fall, I remember seeing people be like, "Yeah, Vista Church, then nobody said anything about Vista Church, Vista Church must be super healthy." Right? And I was just like, "No, I'm just not done writing my story yet." There were other people who eventually shared their story. And now it says - you know, there's there's been a lot of things said about it. So if you have a question about a church, feel free to ask on the Reddit. That's what it's there for. Unmuting Lisa.
Morgan Miller 34:18
Right. Can somebody explain what these network pastor retreats and different leadership conferences that have been mentioned are? Who exactly goes to them?
Jeff Irwin 34:28
Yeah, I'm probably closest to that. So starting somewhere in the teens, maybe 2016 17, maybe 15. There used to be a Network Summer Conference that was open to basically anybody I went to a one in 2012 the anybody could go to if they wanted to. That one was held at Vine Church in Carbondale. And so there there used to be a Network Summer Conference. Eventually the network got big enough that not everybody fit at Vine. So they turned it into a Network Leadership Conference to which all of the you know, all of the staff pastors, overseers, small group leaders, other staff members, etc. And so, you know, there's there's a whole bunch of people, spouses of all of those. And then anybody that the pastors kind of have their eye on, frequently, as a potential future leader would be frequently invited to that, although they might not be told that. You know, in some cases, and no, I went with one guy to the Network Leadership Conference in 2019. He was like, "I'm not even really sure why I'm here. But Luke told me to come - or asked - invited me to come." I wanna be really clear with my language. So anyway, yeah, so there have been summer conferences that have happened, and it was always a chance for Steve and others to kind of address all the people in attendance. There are also and these I know less about. Yeah. And those summer conference, summer leadership conferences, again, are one of those ties across all the network churches, right. So even if you haven't seen Steve, your network leaders, you know, have. Right? Your church, your pastors have seen Steve, have sat under his teaching, etc. So. So anyway, the pastors retreats, they have regular pastors retreats. I know there's lead pastors retreats, and there's a bunch of different forms of that. It seemed like, when I was at Vista, Luke was traveling every one to three months to meet up with some set of pastors in some, in some sense. So it was always hard to figure out exactly which pastors he was meeting with at - was [misspeaks] whether that was Network Leadership Team, or all the lead pastors or anything like that. But I know the pastors get together fairly frequently.
Morgan Miller 37:05
I do have to say that was when I figured out I wasn't a part of the in-group is because I wasn't invited to the 2019 Leadership Conference, yet everybody who wasn't a leader happened to get invitations on their seat. I'm not bitter.
Geneva Moore 37:22
That was an awkward time at Joshua Church.
Morgan Miller 37:24
That was very awkward. It was very awkward.
Geneva Moore 37:27
It was very awkward. It was very awkward. Yeah. I will say that there are also like, I don't know if this is common across the board. I'm sure it happens in pockets. But there are also like hidden, like, hidden like groups, I guess. Like I know, at the start of Joshua church, there was like a men's like, I don't know, group, essentially, like eying out potential leaders. And it was one of those things where like, you're supposed to keep it a secret, but no one actually keeps it a secret. And yeah, so there's also little things like that, that aren't necessarily obvious or written down as well. What happens behind the scenes
Jeff Irwin 38:09
Small groups typically have a core group
Geneva Moore 38:11
Yes.
Jeff Irwin 38:12
That meets separately from the small group. And depending on the small group may or may not talk about the people who are not part of the core group. And things like that. It's very, very inconsistent. Your your small group may not have ever done that. Your small group leader may be doing that meeting with the core group once a month. They may be indexing heavily on that it just kind of depends on the small group leader, small group, a whole bunch of different things, but some of them have that kind of hidden group.
Morgan Miller 38:45
We've got a fun, juicy one. Was anyone here at a network church on Sunday? This person is curious if they have even acknowledged all of the news about Steve. I was not in attendance.
Jeff Irwin 39:04
The short version is not a - none of us were
Geneva Moore 39:06
I was not in attendance, but I am aware of everything that happened. And I don't know if I have liberty to say that yet. But if I find out I do, I will post it the Reddit
Jeff Irwin 39:19
There is talk on the Reddit about things like that.
Geneva Moore 39:21
Yeah. I will say is the standard, unfortunately, network responses.
Jeff Irwin 39:29
Yeah, there have been reports of it was addressed at some churches, either Sunday morning or at the Team meetings if the church had a Team meeting. It was not - I have not heard anybody say that it was addressed satisfactorily.
Morgan Miller 39:49
Yeah. And yeah, Abigail is right. It definitely probably depends on the church too. Um, so this person said, I enjoyed my life thing about church, it felt good to be on the same mission and having a new family through the network. It was a mourning time when I left. I'm sure, at least most of us here can empathize with that a lot, especially since my group friends disappeared. Now it's hard to have a balance and feel at home in another church. How did others find a church they felt at home in?
Morgan Miller 40:25
For me, um, so I've been really open about it, I don't count myself as Christian anymore. I still believe in God, church makes me want to vomit. However, I did find a small group here in Austin. And honestly, it took a while though, it still is taking a while even though I'm back, just trying to jump in. Because when I was in JC it was like, I was there. I went on vacation for a week. And then I jumped into, you know, the two services a week or not services, but church and then Team JC, and then small group, and then whatever activities were going on. And it's kind of scary to go back. I don't know if anybody else here, or if Lisa, she's still on. It's definitely a hard transition. And here, I just want to encourage you to give yourself grace with it and give yourself time if you need it's a lot to mourn from, no matter how long. Whether you left yesterday or three years ago. But if anybody else here has any feelings or -
Lisa Clanton 41:36
Yeah I'll jump in, um, I think I may have [inaudible] in my introduction, that I am now back in Southern Illinois. And I did attend Vine Church for a couple years. COVID just sort of organically helped with that separation, when they ended the teachings being available online and things like that. This sort of, again, just organically ended that relationship. I think a number of us has mentioned that like it is a grief process. And so we're not going to go in the order, you know, the stage order. Or grief might jump a stage come back to one. I think in this collective, we mentioned Easter was, kind of hit us hard. Like blindsided, little sucker punch there, again, when you think you're healed from something. But as Morgan mentioned, when that is our family, we serve there. And again, when you're away from your biological family, and it's that's the thing you do. You serve. And then you may go to dinner, and spend time with your your church family.
Lisa Clanton 42:48
As for me again, because of COVID I started attending a church online, A progressive Baptist Church, it's in Chicago, Illinois, the South Side. It's a, it's a African American church. And I think that's the best place for me right now. That home and that safety of the African American church experience. It's bittersweet. It's the Southside of Chicago. I am at least five and a half hours from physically that church. But there's definitely a welcoming that I felt there. There's a shorthand that I don't have to explain. And when I watch, you know, Reverend Dr. Charlie Dates on Sunday morning, it's like I'm, I'm there in that service. Again, mentioning, have I gone back to the Vine Church physically? I haven't, it's been a couple years. Surprisingly, for Carbondale to be such a small town, I haven't run into a number of folks from there. And not sure if that's God's sovereign protection, or what that is. And to be working at the university, because they have such a large presence on the college campus.
Lisa Clanton 43:57
Those folks that I have stayed connected to, again, as Morgan as mentioned to those are the folks who are supposed to stay connected to. That is family, that is true friendship. And again, to growing up in the church outside of the network, so I always thought it was odd when folks left the church and we lost contact with them. That just never settled with me. I'm like, why is that? So again, I think that's, again, just being a product of being churched outside of the network and not growing up in the network. That those folks who I love that have stayed close to me, are the folks that I'm supposed to continue to love on and stay close to.
Lisa Clanton 44:40
So yeah, again, just to reiterate, to echo it is a process and allow yourself to feel what you feel. I don't know if we really talked about that. Definitely see a good therapist, that has helped. "Jesus and a therapist", I always say that. To feel what you feel and it's okay. Again, I was also Part of the gospel choir. And when there are certain things like I went to a Kirk Franklin concert, and you hear, those are things that I used to do with my girls. And for them to still be in Carbondale. And I'm we'll still have to go to St. Louis to do that. But I didn't go with him to St. Louis to do that. So that was kind of an ouch moment. And I think Sunday mornings, if I'm, if it's going to hit me, it's going to hit me on a Sunday. When I think about some of the more memorable and joy, life affirming things that we we did while I was a part of the network.
Jeff Irwin 45:37
I wanted to as well said I wanted to just throw in a couple brief notes. I love the, "feel what you feel." It's hard leaving a church. It really is. It was really hard. When I left last April, there was there was no Leaving the Network. There was no Reddit. There was no community. I didn't know - I thought I was the only one that had experienced harm from from my leaders. And you can read my my story on my blog, but I thought it was me, I had no idea. It was, it was confusing. So I read all the books that I could get my hands on to try and figure out what was going on. But we tried to go to a number of churches in town. And over time, what I found was that what really was for me PTSD, around church. Was I would go to a church and they would start singing a song that we sang at Vista, and I just could not do it. And, you know, my my body couldn't do it. So I would have to walk out. And I so badly wanted to be back in church, but just couldn't get through a service. And so there was a small group we went to for a little while, and the small group leaders were great and let us come and they understood where we were at. And they were patient with us and everything. So that was really good. We're checking out a church now again, finally. It was like last September that I finally just had to say, "I can't do this to myself anymore. I need to get myself through the end of the year, I just need to get [misspeaks] myself permission to not go." We started going again. Just kind of checking out a church every few weeks we'll go. My daughter went to a youth group for the first time this week. It was exciting. I always tell people like my faith is deeper and richer now than it has ever been. Like I am more in love with Jesus than I have ever been. As I've been able to ask questions that I couldn't ask while I was in the network, as I've been able to read books that I couldn't read in the network. I'm active on Twitter, and I've come across amazing Christian voices there and on Instagram and you know, Ryan Ramsey and Diane Langberg. And, you know, Katherine Spearing and Amy Fritz and all of these people, many of whom I got to meet last month, at a conference in Chicago. It was amazing. Kat and Colby Wilkins.
Jeff Irwin 48:09
I mean there's just amazing Christians out there who are tired of seeing pastors mistreat people in their churches. And they look at Jesus's heart for people and his anger at the Pharisees. And they model that and they want to see it modeled, and that, that I think, really saved my faith. You know, because it was hard, because it was like, how could this even happen? And then to see people be like, "No, look at the Jesus in the Bible. Look at that one." Right? Look at the one in the Bible, look at the Gospels read. And I went through Luke one through eight with some friends. And it was like every single chapter, you're reading about Jesus, and it's just like, "Oh, my gosh, this Jesus, I cannot walk away from." For, for me personally. Others have others have have have left the church and I love - There's an interview with Diane langberg. She's a trauma psych- Christian woman, trauma psychologist, she has been doing it for 50 years. And she talks about, in one interview, somebody says, you know, "Well, what do you say to somebody who doesn't want to go back to church after they've been hurt like this?" And she's like, "Can you blame them?" Like, she's like, "I'm not gonna hold myself as judge over them until I can tell them that churches safe." Right? And she's like, "There's people who have been to through two-three churches like this already." And they're like, "I'm not going back." And she's like, "My heart goes out to them. I'm not going to judge them. I'm not going to hold myself over them and say they're doing it wrong." Like, of course they wouldn't go back. Who goes back to something that that hurts them badly three times? Or whatever, or as deeply as one church can? She's just so full of compassion and you see that with Jesus as well, when he's talking about, you know, "I'm gentle and lowly. My burden is light." And things like that. And him just saying, "Come I'll give you rest." Right? And saying his burden is His burden is light, it's easy. So, anyway, that's where I'm at.
Morgan Miller 50:17
Very good.
Jeff Irwin 50:19
Somebody just asked me what conference [inaudible]. It's the it was the RESTORE Conference in Chicago, you can actually listen to some of the audio on the Roys Report, I'll just put it in the chat. Roys Report, podcast. At this point, it does not happen every year. It happens when they decide to make it happen. So I will, I will share some more information
Morgan Miller 50:42
We have one more question. We've got six minutes left. So it probably will take up that time. Somebody is asking if there is a timeline. Hang on. I don't want to mess this wording up. Could the timeline of one lead pastors found out about Steve's arrest be clarified? I mean, there's like a lot of different things and a lot of different people saying different things. So anybody know when exactly? I know 2020 It sounded like it's when most of the pastors found out but anybody know a timeline on that?
Jeff Irwin 51:35
I'm sorry, I missed the question as I was catching up on some of the - Timeline for what?
Geneva Moore 51:41
for when the pastors found out about Steve's arrest record.
Jeff Irwin 51:45
Yeah. So James Chester knew 2007. Larry Anderson did as well. He passed away a little - year and a half ago. Sandor it sounds like knew earlier than the rest maybe. But Luke and Sandor, Luke Williams and Sandor Paull at Vista and Christland definitely knew. Or at least according to Andrew Lumpe they knew, and this this is all according to Andrew Lumpe, so, and LTN. So, you know, we're just relaying info here. But, but yeah, they, he, Andrew says he told them and he's got the emails from May 2019, May or June 2019. So at least they knew then I think the Network Leadership Team, those those six guys that I rattled off earlier, knew except for Steve had not. He contacted the other five, I believe in 2019. And then it sounded like he heard in September-ish 2020 that most lead pastors had heard at that point from Steve that Steve had to disclosed something to the lead pastors. But it's unclear what exactly was disclosed then and whether or not it actually matches the arrest record. One of the big things is, it sounds like there was a lot of confusion over how old the victim was. And maybe there had been some telling that he was 17. When in fact, when you look at the specific charge, in the in the court records, it is for aggravated criminal sodomy, which requires them to have been, and it actually says the victim was under the age of 16. So.
Jeff Irwin 53:48
Somebody just, go ahead,
Morgan Miller 53:50
No, go for it. Go for it. I was just saying there's one more question.
Jeff Irwin 53:52
Yeah, I was just gonna say so it sounds like most of the lead pastors knew somewhere in in, you know, maybe September 2020. So almost two years. It's, but it's hard to say whether or not they knew everything at that point. And it's even hard to say whether or not they knew there was an arrest. So I'm not actually sure about that. They know now, or should. Right? The information is public. The court records are public, and anybody can request them from Johnson County. So, they should know now.
Morgan Miller 54:30
One more, is the network a legal entity? So I know each church, I believe has to be a 501c3 under their state. And I don't know considering that the network is technically a no named group of churches, like somebody answered, I'm not really sure how that works. Jeff do you know?
Jeff Irwin 54:53
Somebody looked really hard for it last year sometime and has not not been able to locate a legally incorporated F01c3 as a, I don't know how to say your name Paseo, oh, Paco, I don't know. Paco. There we go. So now I finally know how to say it. I've always wondered on the Reddit, so. But yeah, Paco looked into it and could not find the legal entity. And so but we do know that the network churches all send 5% of their money to some network general fund, but we don't know, under what legal entity that fund exists.
Morgan Miller 55:39
So for those of us who may not know what a legal entity technically is?
Jeff Irwin 55:48
Yeah, it'd be a actual 501c3 filed with the government to get nonprofit status and even businesses incorporate as legal entities. You know, it's a pretty common thing. Most organizations are officially legal, legal things all of your local churches are. But the network, the network general fund or network, the network, nobody has been able to track it down.
Morgan Miller 56:25
So, also saying what Paco said is, does that mean that the network is even real?
Jeff Irwin 56:35
It's hard to say. Right? That that would be the - sorry, somebody's sending me information. I need to find out whether or not I can say that.
Morgan Miller 56:52
According to Steve Morgan, the network seems to not be a thing.
Jeff Irwin 56:57
Okay. Yeah, I'm hearing from somebody in the chat that the local churches send their checks to Joshua Church. So it may be that the network general fund exists under Joshua church's 501c3.
Morgan Miller 57:16
And will we be doing more of these chats in the future? Question mark?
Geneva Moore 57:20
Yes.
Jeff Irwin 57:23
Did people like them?
Morgan Miller 57:25
You tell us.
Jeff Irwin 57:29
We'll do more if they're helpful. I'm totally game.
Morgan Miller 57:36
Yes, yes. Yeah. And stay tuned.
Jeff Irwin 57:39
I know, some of those answers are long. I know. I ramble a lot. I'm sorry, to my to my co hosts. But I hope it's helpful. And I'm just kind of taking it from a point of view of assuming that many of the people are new here and need a lot of context. So which is great. Yeah, we're glad you're here. We're glad you're asking questions. So.
Morgan Miller 58:01
Yeah, thank you guys so much for participating and asking questions. And yeah, shameless plug, get ready for our podcast whenever it launches.
Geneva Moore 58:13
Anyone have any final thoughts? Before we close soon? Anyone? Morgan. Jeff? Lisa?
Jeff Irwin 58:24
All good.
Lisa Clanton 58:26
You said final thoughts? Geneva? Yes. Final thoughts. It's gonna sound really churchy. But folks, just be encouraged. Hang in there, fight the good fight. Take what you need from the Reddit posts. If it's encouragement, sometimes it's a good laugh. When folks are sharing their funnier stories and things like that. So just be encouraged. And everyone's going through something. I think that's the one thing that we take away also, from the Reddit that everyone has been through something. Everyone has a story to tell. And you're not alone.
Morgan Miller 59:01
You're not alone. You're worthy. My Reddit messages are open.
Jeff Irwin 59:07
Yeah, my reddit my Reddit DMs, my email's always open. And I'm happy to get on calls with anybody. Anytime. So.
Geneva Moore 59:16
Me as well. I have one final thought. If there's anything I could give it would be to look into more resources and information about spiritual abuse, church systems. There's a wealth of information of people who have been doing this for a very long time, decades. And so that has been an invaluable resource to me. I actually reached out to some of these people when the website first came out, since they had expertise in this area, and are very aware of documented patterns of dysfunctional and abusive church systems. There's some beautiful content out there. And so yeah, we could probably get up a small list of just initial resources to share with you all that's been helpful for us. But yeah.
Jeff Irwin 1:00:12
The website LTN started about a year ago.
Morgan Miller 1:00:19
Yeah.
Geneva Moore 1:00:20
All right. Cool. Have a good night, everybody. Thanks for joining. Bye!
Lisa Clanton 1:00:25
Buenas Noches!
Geneva Moore 1:00:26
Bye everyone!